Dust: Pretraining Transformers Without Backpropagation(qlabs.sh)
276 points by E-Reverance 8 days ago | 82 comments
tl;dr: Dust is a zeroth-order optimization method that trains transformers by perturbing activations independently per token, turning each token into a virtual population member evaluated in a single forward pass. It matches or exceeds backprop on pretraining in several settings and is 1000-10,000x more compute-efficient than weight-space ES methods like EGGROLL. Counterintuitively, larger models (up to 243M params tested) are more population-efficient than smaller ones, and Dust's gradient estimates increasingly align with backprop's as population grows—though it's not yet compute-competitive with backprop at today's scales.
HN Discussion:
  • ↓Derivative-free methods are perennially overhyped and gradients remain fundamentally superior for smooth NN objectives
  • ↓Dust's claimed advantages likely disappear once nonconvexity smoothing is properly accounted for
  • ↑ZOO methods are valuable in regimes where backprop is weak, making Dust a welcome addition
  • ↑Removing Hessian conditioning limitations makes this an exciting direction worth exploring further
  • ~Needs more rigorous comparison (wall clock, energy, memory) or hybrid/hardware approaches to be truly compelling